1 1 KERRVILLE-KERR COUNTY JOINT AIRPORT BOARD 2 Minimum Standards' Workshop 3 Wednesday, April 27, 2016 4 9:00 a.m. 5 Airport Terminal Conference Room 6 1877 Airport Loop Road 7 Kerrville, Texas 78028 8 ******************************************************** 9 MEMBERS PRESENT: 10 Stephen King, President Corey Walters, Vice President 11 Bill Wood Kirk Griffin 12 Ed Livermore 13 AIRPORT BOARD STAFF PRESENT: 14 Bruce McKenzie, Airport Manager Carole Dungan, Executive Assistant 15 CITY STAFF PRESENT: 16 Jack Pratt, Mayor 17 VISITORS 18 Trey Hughes, Mooney Aircraft Pilots Association 19 Mike Miles, Mooney International Joe Kennedy, Owner Kerrville Aviation 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 1 MR. KING: Call this meeting to order in 2 Kerr County-Kerrville -- Kerrville-Kerr County Joint 3 Airport Board on special meeting, workshop to review the 4 minimum standards for the airport. I guess we'll just 5 start by saying what basically this meeting we've looked 6 at this over the last couple of years. We just want to 7 look at this, look at the minimum standards and see 8 what inconsistencies there are. 9 I mean I think -- I talked to Kirk just 10 before the meeting a little bit about that, and just 11 said that, you know, these minimum standards were 12 written a long time ago by our former airport manager. 13 And at the time they were written, there was no -- the 14 structure of the board was totally different. It was an 15 advisory board. There was not -- it was kind of in 16 flux, it was a lot of different boards at that time. 17 That advisory board had members of the counsel on it, 18 had members of the County on it, and didn't have 19 members, and changing. And those things were written, 20 and they were written before we had an autonomous board 21 that basically operated under interlocal agreement. So 22 some of these -- some of these clauses in here, I think, 23 are a little bit onerous as far as some of the 24 activities that go on at the airport, and I think one 25 thing we don't want to do is we don't want to impede 3 1 anyone's right to do business on the airport, as long as 2 they're licensed and, you know, they can -- if we need 3 insurance and they have insurance some other way. So I 4 think that's hopefully that's kind of what we're going 5 to do here today is just kind of go through these things 6 and kind of look at it a little bit. And I don't know 7 that we make any big changes to them, but at least we 8 can earmark some things that probably need to be looked 9 at. And then we need to get together with the attorney 10 and probably, you know, look at discrimination and rules 11 and stuff like that, and find out where we're at as far 12 as that's concerned. All right. Anybody have any idea 13 how to start this? 14 MR. LIVERMORE: Well, I think there's three 15 questions that we need to answer. 16 MR. WOOD: And I've gone through the whole 17 thing and have marked a bunch of places that I want to 18 talk about. 19 MR. KING: Now, you guys are just looking at 20 the -- 21 MR. WALTERS: Article II, minimum operating 22 standards. 23 MR. KING: The operating standards; not the 24 general -- not Article I the general -- 25 MR. WOOD: What if I have just a question? 4 1 MR. KING: Not the airport code. Let me get 2 to this. 3 MR. WOOD: Well this is in general, okay. 4 MR. McKENZIE: If it's article I -- 5 MR. WOOD: Article I section 1.19, and I 6 think is pertinent because it talks about the use of the 7 airport property. Obviously any business or building or 8 land that's inside the fence, so to speak, should be 9 commercial aeronautical activity. But don't we also 10 have some property that's outside the fence? 11 MR. KING: We do. 12 MR. WOOD: And does that need to be 13 restricted to aeronautical? 14 MR. McKENZIE: No. In our master plan it 15 denotes to that we can use non aeronautical activity, 16 for example -- 17 MR. WOOD: Well, this doesn't agree with 18 that. 19 MR. McKENZIE: And that's correct. 20 MR. KING: And what is that? 21 MR. WOOD: 1.19, page 6. 22 MR. LIVERMORE: I only brought this 23 different section. 24 MR. WOOD: I've got the whole thing. 25 MRS. DUNGAN: Do I need to run some copies? 5 1 MR. KING: You might run a copy of it, 2 they're looking at Article I, page 6. 3 MR. LIVERMORE: There you may be printing a 4 whole lot. 5 MR. KING: There's two different -- 6 MR. WOOD: It's in general. 7 MR. KING: There's only a few pages of that. 8 MR. WALTERS: Rather than -- I mean I agree 9 with you based on what it reads that, you know, we've 10 got kind of airside that's for aeronautical uses and 11 then we have property that's outside. 12 MR. WOOD: Well, actually we couldn't lease 13 the building over there to the guy that wanted to use it 14 for trucks. 15 MAYOR PRATT: Well, this says inside the 16 fence though, don't it. 17 MR. McKENZIE: No, Sir. 18 MAYOR PRATT: If you just made that 19 distinction that would solve your problem. 20 MR. WOOD: I'm just bringing it up. 21 MR. WALTERS: I think what we oughta do is 22 just have her note or, you know, I'll note exactly, you 23 know, the section that, you know, it needs to be -- the 24 language needs to be addressed, which would give us the 25 flexibility to have non aeronautical uses on the outside 6 1 the -- or the non airside property. 2 MR. WOOD: And I just wanted to bring it up, 3 so you would talk about it. 4 MR. KING: As an owner, Mayor, I mean -- and 5 I know you can't speak for the whole Council, but I mean 6 do you feel like it's your intent that we -- you think 7 that intent of the interlocal agreement is such that we 8 would -- like the BA Product's Hangar that we would 9 lease that hangar, it's on the airport property, I mean 10 when that lease comes up if we want to lease that 11 property, do you think that's within the scope of the 12 the airport? 13 MAYOR PRATT: I think that I'd have to go 14 back to the interlocal agreement. I think that has to 15 stand, whatever it says. 16 MR. KING: Whatever it says. And I don't 17 know, I haven't read it. 18 MR. McKENZIE: And the Board is responsibile 19 for the economic growth of the airport. 20 MAYOR PRATT: The whole piece of property. 21 MR. McKENZIE: Everything. So that would 22 entail the Board leasing, as I interpret it. 23 MAYOR PRATT: And that's my understanding, 24 but because I don't have it in front of me -- but in 25 response to the question, but you have property inside 7 1 the fence and you have property outside the fence, and I 2 know that exists, because I've talked to people about us 3 applying some of the property outside the fence for non 4 aeronautical purposes. 5 MR. KING: Yeah. When we leased that BA 6 Product's Hangar and that's that non aeronautical right 7 there. And we're trying to get the process to go ahead 8 and lease it again. And it can be non aeronautical, 9 okay. So we need to look at it. 10 MAYOR PRATT: And I'll give you another 11 example that just popped in my mind. If you have an 12 organization out here that puts in an upholster shop for 13 instance for aeronautical, but to make this their 14 business work here they start doing custom work for 15 motor homes or whatever, which is non aeronautical so 16 you don't want to limit them to what they can do. As 17 long as they're doing aeronautical inside the fence 18 they're trying to boost their business with motor homes 19 or whatever, fine. 20 MR. WALTERS: I think, you know, we need to 21 -- I'm not saying that we're -- or anybody else I 22 believe is saying that we're here to rewrite today the 23 language in there. We're just bringing out sections 24 that we think need to be addressed, and I would 25 recommend that probably after we come up with this list 8 1 of items that need to be addressed, that two members of 2 the board and Bruce and Patrick, the attorney that 3 represents the airport, get together and then begin to 4 make modifications to any sections in our airport code, 5 which are needed or suggested. 6 MR. KING: Okay. No, I think that's a great 7 idea, because I think it's -- in other words we can just 8 highlight the sections that we think we'd like to look 9 at. 10 MR. WALTERS: Yes. 11 MR. KING: Not saying need to be changed, 12 but ones we need to look at, okay. So we'll do that on 13 Section 119, take a look at that. 14 MR. WOOD: The next one I had in Article II, 15 minimum operating standards page 9, 2A.02(b) was spelled 16 out. And this ties in -- and I had a conversation with 17 Bruce earlier about what's a commercial operator. Okay. 18 What's the definition of commercial operator. Well, our 19 understanding is it could be a flight instructor, 20 anybody that's doing aeronautical business on the 21 airport. Well, why would a flight instructor have to 22 have a one half acre of contiguous airport property? It 23 doesn't make sense. He could have an office in here 24 like -- in fact we had Ron Blilie and David that just 25 have an office, so they're in violation of this. 9 1 MR. KING: I agree. And there's another 2 section in this Article II, which drills down to flight 3 instructors, flight schools, and has a totally different 4 requirement. It says they have to have a hundred square 5 foot of office space. 6 MR. WOOD: My thought is -- 7 MR. KING: I see what you're saying. 8 MR. WOOD: -- rather than put numbers in 9 these qualifications we should say that -- which we do 10 say in some places that they should have space adequate 11 to do the work they're trying to do and let it -- let 12 the airport manager make that decision with backup of 13 the Board, rather than write down strict -- you know, 14 one size doesn't fit all. 15 MR. LIVERMORE: These don't have a hundred 16 square feet in them. 17 MR. McKENZIE: They do. 18 MR. WOOD: So anyway, page 9. 19 MR. KING: Okay, I agree with that. 20 MR. LIVERMORE: The question that I have 21 related to this same paragraph is do these operators 22 who -- and this really comes up under the FBO later, but 23 do they pay for this, this half acre? I mean is anyone 24 paying for that? 25 MR. WOOD: Well, my hope is that that will 10 1 go away. 2 MR. LIVERMORE: Well, yeah. 3 MR. McKENZIE: It nomenclates -- the 4 verbiage says it shall lease a minimum of one half acre 5 is what it denotes. 6 MR. LIVERMORE: Is anyone doing that? 7 MR. WOOD: I assume that they're thinking 8 about -- 9 MR. McKENZIE: The FBO is. 10 MR. WOOD: I assume that they're thinking 11 about an avionics shop or mechanics shop or something 12 like that. And not a one person operation like a flight 13 instructor. But it's -- 14 MR. LIVERMORE: Not clear. 15 MR. WALTERS: Well, let's just look at too 16 the timing of when these were written, and what 17 facilities we had on the airport. 18 MR. GRIFFIN: What Dave was trying to do in 19 the generation of this minimum standards -- 20 MR. WALTERS: So I say the facilities on the 21 airport have changed from the time these were written, 22 and which gets back to the point of we need -- they need 23 some modification. 24 MR. GRIFFIN: The initial go at it was, you 25 know, 11 years ago. And times have changed. 11 1 MR. LIVERMORE: So I guess back to Bill's 2 point is what is a commercial operator is. We talking 3 about an FBO here or we talking about a flight 4 instructor? 5 MR. WALTERS: A commercial operator is 6 defined under the definitions. A commercial operator is 7 defined under the definitions. 8 MR. LIVERMORE: Okay. What is that? 9 MR. WOOD: Anybody that does their 10 aeronautical business on the airport is what I recall. 11 MR. WALTERS: I can read it to you, if you 12 want, but basically it says conducting aeronautical or 13 aviation related businesses or services. 14 MR. KING: Pretty general. 15 MR. WOOD: Just say relook at Section IIA 16 and make it pertinent. 17 MR. WALTERS: Yes. 18 MR. KING: I agree. Like I said awhile ago, 19 Bill, if you go over to Article IIG, which is general 20 aviation specialty services, that's where it drills down 21 and has -- says aircraft sales, aircraft maintenance, 22 aircraft leasing, flight training services, and it gives 23 you what they shall have. You know they shall have an 24 appropriate office space adequate for classroom da dada, 25 and have an on duty normal -- have on duty normal 12 1 business hours, at least one instructor who is currently 2 certified by the FAA, so I think I agree. I think 3 there's some conflict there in what, you know, 4 commercial operators to a general statement and the 5 other one is actually more specific, and have two 6 different requirements. So okay, we'll look at that. 7 We'll just look at that whole A, B, C, D, all the way 8 through G. Because it does say you have to have an 9 adequate patio hangar facility and use of a paved 10 aircraft parking apron and use of a paved automobile 11 parking spaces. 12 MR. WOOD: Yeah, this document needs to be 13 pertinent to as the airport exists today. 14 MR. KING: Today, okay. 15 MR. WOOD: Like Corey said. 16 MR. KING: Go ahead, the next. We're just 17 going to go down all of your concerns, Bill, and then 18 going to do each person. 19 MAYOR PRATT: Steve, can I interrupt just a 20 minute. When you mentioned parking spaces and that 21 clause in there, that just goes back to the City 22 ordnances, that businesses that you gotta have so many 23 parking spaces per square footage. So I mean it's gotta 24 be consistent with the City Code. 25 MR. GRIFFIN: Well, there are several Codes 13 1 that are in there. And I mean we not only do we have 2 the City and the very limited the amount of County 3 Codes, but also the overriding factor that gets into 4 here, and it's a lot easier to defer and fall back to, 5 are both the TxDOT aviation codes, we gotta live with 6 them as well as FAA requirements that trump a bunch of 7 the stuff. So in looking at some other minimum 8 standards for other airports, there's a lot of cases, 9 the stuff that's in here because the documentation has 10 got written better elsewhere -- 11 MAYOR PRATT: But sometimes you can't take 12 the cookie cutter because their ordinances are different 13 than our's. 14 MR. GRIFFIN: Exactly. But looking at 15 Georgetown, being one of them, the airport, that 16 operates very similar type facility. You look at those 17 minimum standards and really what they do is they refer 18 back to the FAA and the TxDOT aviation codes, is really 19 the underlying factor. Then of course, the parking 20 people, the sub piece to that is what the City and local 21 entity requirements are on top of this. 22 MAYOR PRATT: I really want to make this 23 easy for you. In my opinion, instead of saying so many 24 parking spaces refer back to the City Code, when the 25 City Code changes you're already taken care of. 14 1 MR. GRIFFIN: That's where I'm going with 2 this. Because we have to live with everybody's 3 requirements, you say that type of thing up front and 4 say that the facility must meet Federal and local codes, 5 that type of language, you know, get the right type in 6 there, but that type of language is probably more 7 important and more pertinent than what we got. 8 MAYOR PRATT: That's exactly right. That's 9 my point. You refer back and you wouldn't have to 10 adjust this thing -- 11 MR. GRIFFIN: Every time. I agree. That's 12 your point's spot on. Just wanted to get the Federal 13 and State piece in there as well. 14 MR. WALTERS: And I don't know if 15 everybody's got comments on every page, you know, I 16 think Bill's got some comments. But I'd say we're on 17 page 11 or 12. If anybody's got any comments let's just 18 go page by page -- 19 MR. KING: That would be a good idea. 20 MR. WALTERS: Yeah. 21 MR. WOOD: Where are we starting at 11? 22 MR. WALTERS: On 11. If you have any 23 comments on 11; I do not. 24 MR. WOOD: No. Well, I do have a comment on 25 11 and 12. It jumps back and forth when we were talking 15 1 about an airport business permit application. On page 2 11 it's the approval of the airport manager and on page 3 12 it's the approval of the Board. And I think reading 4 between the lines what that means is the airport manager 5 makes a ruling and then the Board agrees on it, I think. 6 If I'm wrong in that, correct me. 7 MR. KING: Well we discussed this earlier. 8 When these things were originally written the first time 9 they were written and I actually saw the original 10 documents, having referred to the airport manager. 11 Every paragraph had the airport manager in there, there 12 was nothing in there about the Board, because the Board 13 was kind of -- it was an advisory board at the time. 14 And so there was no one at that time -- the City was 15 managing the airport, I believe. And there was no -- 16 the Board didn't have any say so over the airport 17 manager at all. So they were all written, every 18 paragraph had airport manager, airport manager. It had 19 to be approved by the airport manager. So when they 20 changed it to an autonomous board, where the airport 21 manager sort of served at the pleasure of the Airport 22 Board, they went and changed them all back to Airport 23 Board. And I think this one may have just been missed. 24 MR. WOOD: Well, that's my only comment is 25 to make sure 2A and 2B -- or 2B.01 and 2B.02 agree with 16 1 each other. 2 MR. KING: Probably not changed because it 3 was -- 4 MR. McKENZIE: That's right. 5 MAYOR PRATT: I'll make a comment on that, 6 too. Sometimes you may want to leave the authority with 7 the airport manager so you can get some things done 8 without have to wait a month for the Board to approve 9 it. 10 MR. KING: That's very true. That's very 11 true. 12 MAYOR PRATT: So be careful about making 13 everything Airport Board, put a dollar limit on the 14 authority for spending for instance on airport manager, 15 and the Board takes everything over that. 16 MR. WOOD: I think it goes to the appeal 17 process if that gets denied and then he wants to appeal. 18 MR. McKENZIE: Then it comes to the Board. 19 MR. WOOD: But I just wanted to make sure 20 that our verbiage said that. 21 MR. KING: Okay. And page 12. 22 MR. WOOD: That was all. 23 MR. KING: That was all you had. 24 MR. WOOD: Nothing on 13. 25 MR. LIVERMORE: Well, 13 got a comment on 17 1 what y'all were just discussing. Item 2B.03(c), the 2 middle of 13, the Airport Board shall hear and decide 3 all appeals from the airport manager's decision, so that 4 kind of -- 5 MR. KING: Yeah, that does cover it right 6 there. 7 MR. LIVERMORE: -- creates a line of 8 authority, I guess you might say for his appeal. 9 MR. KING: 14. 10 MR. LIVERMORE: What do we mean on 14 it 11 says under all licenses, permits, etc., it says item 12 (a), rights to engage in specific activities at the 13 airport are not exclusive rights. What's the scope of 14 that? 15 MR. WALTERS: In my opinion we're not giving 16 anybody all exclusive, as they say, an avionics shop 17 comes in and it's just a general term, it's when we give 18 you a license to operate an avionics shop on the 19 airport, that we're not giving you an exclusive right. 20 Meaning if someone else wants to come in, they can do 21 it, you know. We're just making it clear that -- the 22 Code's making it clear that even though we gave you a 23 permit doesn't mean that we've given you the license 24 that you will be the only one. 25 MR. McKENZIE: That's one of the 39 Federal 18 1 grant assurances we cannot go against. That's what 2 Corey's talking about. 3 MR. WALTERS: I do have a comment on the top 4 of page 15, but it's related to a section on page 14, 5 it's 2C.03, all leases, licenses, permits and agreements 6 subject to certain provisions. I would recommend that 7 we add a G to that section that says must comply and 8 subject to airport minimum standards and airport rules 9 and regulations as set forth as may be amended and 10 revised in the future as determined by the Airport 11 Board. I'll give this language when we do the 12 amendment. But just so it's clear that all these 13 leases, licenses, permits and agreements are subject to 14 the Code, the standards, the minimum standards of rules 15 and regulations. 16 MR. WOOD: I'm assuming all that liability 17 insurance is where you want it, Bruce. 18 MAYOR PRATT: Corey, in relationship to what 19 you were just maybe related to it, I think there should 20 be something in there that says the Airport Board can -- 21 should not make any decisions on things outside your 22 property. 23 MR. WALTERS: Why would we need to do that? 24 MAYOR PLATT: I'll give you an example. 25 Martin Marietta is a good example, the comment should 19 1 have never been made in my opinion, okay, because it's 2 outside your property, I don't care, if somebody comes 3 to you and gives you -- asks you to make an opinion, 4 opinion does not affect the Airport Board, stay out of 5 it, because you got -- you got two owners, one taking 6 one side and one taking the other. 7 MR. GRIFFIN: I think the question was -- 8 the question was the violation of the approach -- 9 MAYOR PRATT: I understand that. 10 THE REPORTER: Excuse me, I can't get y'all 11 at the same time. 12 MAYOR PRATT: The question was related to 13 air quality coming from that across the road. And that 14 is something I think that -- okay. 15 MR. LIVERMORE: I don't agree with that. 16 MR. GRIFFIN: It wasn't so much just -- we 17 weren't looking at parts of air quality. The question 18 that was asked was is it a violation of navigation. 19 MR. McKENZIE: And easements. 20 MR. WOOD: And visibility. 21 MAYOR PRATT: I understand. But they took 22 that beyond -- they took your answer and took it beyond. 23 MR. GRIFFIN: Well, I can't control that. 24 MR. LIVERMORE: But we had to ask that 25 question. That question was based on the safety of 20 1 aircraft operations, and the airport -- what's the word, 2 boundary. 3 MR. McKENZIE: Navigation limits. 4 MR. WOOD: I don't know who answered the 5 question, but I think it was only to the point of -- 6 MR. McKENZIE: I did. 7 MR. WOOD: -- visibility, and did it affect 8 the approach and the answer was no, I think. 9 MR. McKENZIE: Yes. 10 MR. GRIFFIN: We asked TxDOT, but then went 11 back to the FAR's. 12 MR. McKENZIE: I went all the way up the 13 chain and got it cleared up. 14 MR. GRIFFIN: So it was only in the 15 navigability of that air space, and the approach to 16 that. 17 MR. WALTERS: I think our concerns go beyond 18 just what property that we own, or what the property the 19 airport owns, because of the approaches, because of the, 20 you know, incoming traffic to our facility. 21 MR. WOOD: To define that if you can look to 22 a chart and see where they draw the areas of approach 23 which is well outside our physical boundaries. But it's 24 where the airplanes start entering the approaching. 25 MR. GRIFFIN: In our minimum standards 21 1 document, we have those FAA approaches, and it extends 2 well out into the middle of the City, and -- 3 MR. WALTERS: We may not own property, you 4 know, over at OLH, but if somebody were to construct or 5 put up a hundred foot crane over there, that would 6 certainly have an impact. And I think we would want to 7 have an opinion on that even though it's outside our 8 physical ownership of our property. 9 MAYOR PRATT: Well, sure because then you 10 could go to the City and say hey the article says dada 11 dada. 12 MR. LIVERMORE: We're getting all kind of 13 deep into it here. But I mean someone might want to put 14 up a TV tower outside of -- or inside the final 15 approach. You know there's one -- there's one directly 16 on the way to Lakeway right now you have to watch for. 17 It's 500 feet or so. 18 MR. WOOD: That's an interesting question, I 19 wonder, I never looked at the City Codes or anything, 20 but I wonder if our approaches are protected by the 21 zoning and the -- 22 MAYOR PRATT: They're protected, and also 23 there's a height limitations. 24 MR. GRIFFIN: Our's are protected by the 25 Feds. 22 1 MR. WALTERS: Well, I mean back to your 2 point or your question, I don't think that, you know, I 3 or anybody else sitting here can make a recommendation 4 that we -- that our opinions are -- are -- or that we 5 only address issues related to physical airport 6 property. 7 MR. GRIFFIN: Yeah. 8 MR. WOOD: But also, we would not feel 9 obligated to comment on air quality or something like 10 you said, that is not our business. I agree with that. 11 Just aeronautical. 12 MR. LIVERMORE: There has to be a 13 relationship between the question and our act. 14 MR. WOOD: My next comment on the middle of 15 page 18 where it talks about FBO's. 16 MR. WALTERS: I think I have some comments 17 on some of these as well, but I think some of these on 18 18, that 2F.03 that again goes back to the initial 19 comment that we made, which is, you know, what are our 20 facilities today, and are the -- is the language in our 21 code minimum standards adequate to reflect what we have, 22 and/or restrictive, or are they too restrictive in the 23 fact that we're restricting, you know, anybody from 24 coming in to set up a business. So I think those are 25 things that we just need to look at as we go through 23 1 this with Patrick. 2 MR. WOOD: And also include the definition 3 back on page 65 because to me -- I don't know, I have my 4 own idea. I consider Joey an FBO, but somebody just 5 stores an airplane, I don't know that that would 6 necessarily be an FBO. And the definition says that 7 anybody engaging in of any of the following, which I 8 don't know, is that a good definition of an FBO back 9 there? 10 MR. WALTERS: It's the definitions. 11 MR. GRIFFIN: It needs to be addressed under 12 2016 life. 13 MR. KENNEDY: Part of that reason that was 14 developed, it was 5190-7 that gives us a set of 15 guidelines for developing minimum standards. One of the 16 things that they do is you don't want to discriminate 17 against somebody coming in and start an FBO. But you 18 can't discriminate against somebody that's been required 19 to do something for some 25 or 30 years at the same 20 time. So you have to have a fair playing field, an even 21 playing field. And even though we got 70 some thousand 22 square feet, minimum standards need to have some 23 requirement like in kind investment on the part of 24 someone who wants to provide all of those services; 25 otherwise you're discriminating against people that have 24 1 already been there who have been required to do certain 2 things. When -- when Kerrville Aviation's leases were 3 originally developed, they were developed -- okay, if 4 you want to be the FBO we're going to require you to do 5 the certain things and we've been held to that standard 6 for all those years. And if you come in and you set a 7 set of standards that drastically reduces the 8 investment, and the -- and the requirements for someone 9 else to come in and directly compete with that, then 10 you're -- you're discriminating against those people, so 11 there's a fine line. You have to have some standards 12 and it outlines it pretty well in the FAA Advisory 13 Circulars. 14 MR. WALTERS: I think that really is a legal 15 question that we need to get counsel advise on. 16 MR. LIVERMORE: I think there's two 17 questions in relating to this topic, written down here 18 last night. Our coop fuel sales allowed on the airport 19 under our rules, selling only to members of a delineated 20 coop. The second question is, may we legally operate in 21 a way that creates a private monopoly on public 22 property, such as this airport? 23 MR. WALTERS: I'm going to repeat my 24 comment. I think these are -- those are both questions 25 that are -- we need to have legal advice on. 25 1 MR. LIVERMORE: I agree. 2 MR. WALTERS: And I think it's not something 3 that we can really get into just at this point, because 4 it is a legal question, and I think without the -- with 5 the absence of counsel, I think it's kind of -- 6 MR. LIVERMORE: I'm not trying to solve this 7 question this morning, but I think these questions 8 needed to be addressed. 9 MR. WALTERS: I agree with you. 10 MR. LIVERMORE: I think we do need legal 11 advice on this. 12 MR. GRIFFIN: Well, as far as this document 13 goes and the language in this document, that doesn't 14 need to be addressed today. We gotta remember that our 15 minimum standards is our ten thousand foot level look at 16 this thing. And the requirements need -- the 17 requirements that are in the minimum standards need to 18 delineate that perspective. The implementation of how 19 you take minimum standards and apply it to real world 20 cases is not the purpose of a minimum standards 21 document. The minimum standards document is to draw a 22 line and say this is how we're going to operate the 23 airport. And then unique cases are dealt on a case by 24 case basis. And that's where the interpretation of a 25 board and the owners comes into play into how we 26 1 structure this thing. I'm not disagreeing with the -- 2 that those are topics that need to be addressed by this 3 airport and by this Board, but what I'm saying is, this 4 document -- I personally believe that this document 5 shouldn't have that kind of detail in it, because then 6 you're limiting the capabilities of the Board to do its 7 function, and the airport manager do his function. 8 MR. WOOD: You're restricting the Board, 9 you're restricting the old FBO's, and you're restricting 10 any new FBO's. But I agree with what was said that 11 these be fair to new people, but it's also -- I want to 12 make this analogous to the new shopping center on I-10. 13 You going to give incentives to new people to come in 14 when there's old people that have been working right 15 along, you know. 16 MAYOR PRATT: No. 17 MR. LIVERMORE: Well, if you think about 18 those two questions, they're balanced, both sides of the 19 issue are covered by those two questions. 20 MR. GRIFFIN: Well, correct. But I don't 21 think that's a minimum -- that's not a minimum standards 22 topic. It's a minimum -- how do you implement the 23 minimum standards. Again, if the specificity of the 24 requirements don't include the nuts and bolts pieces -- 25 MR. LIVERMORE: They do later on. 27 1 MR. GRIFFIN: And that's a concern I've got 2 with the existing document. But again, that's why this 3 document was written in 2005 when the world was 4 different, and the airport manager was trying to have 5 something to go back on and say I have to have something 6 that I can stand -- that stands behind me when I talk 7 with a potential vendor or customer or whatever. 8 So I think -- it's as Corey said it's 9 something that's got to be dealt with at some point, but 10 is it a minimum standards topic, or is it the 11 implementation of the minimum standards. 12 MR. LIVERMORE: Well, the answers to those 13 two questions will guide whatever we write here. 14 MR. GRIFFIN: No, because that's a specific 15 case. The philosophy -- 16 MR. LIVERMORE: No, it's not a specific 17 case. 18 MR. GRIFFIN: Well, the philosophy of how -- 19 the implementation of the philosophy is what you're 20 asking for. You're saying the minimum standards needs 21 to say how to deal with a coop. No. Minimum standards 22 needs to say the airport has to have these kinds of 23 capabilities. 24 MR. WOOD: If we have an FBO on this deal, 25 what are our minimum requirements for that FBO, 28 1 regardless of who it is, and it applies to anybody, new 2 or old, you know. This is -- this is what we think. It 3 doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a repair shop. 4 MR. GRIFFIN: Right. 5 MR. WOOD: I know there's lots of FBO's that 6 don't have a repair shop. So don't -- to me when this 7 was written, and Joey forgive me if I got it wrong, but 8 way back when we had nothing, these guys were brain 9 storming, well, what is it we need on this field. And 10 say, hey Joe can provide it and let's write it all up 11 and we want everything. So I don't know -- 12 MR. GRIFFIN: Well, and the other part was 13 we need these kinds of services, so as an advisory board 14 let's put it in our minimum standards so that somebody 15 has to provide it. And really, I think what they were 16 trying to do as opposed to saying hey, Kerrville 17 Aviation, 15, 20 years ago, we're going to define what 18 you need to do if you want to play on our airfield, 19 because we know we need these kinds of service. And I 20 think that's wrong for this type of document, I think 21 it's wrong for a Board to tell a business how to run 22 their business. We need to say hey you gotta be 23 certified this and that. But if an FBO doesn't want to 24 provide a rent car, you know how can you fault the guy 25 for that? 29 1 MR. WOOD: Yeah. 2 MR. GRIFFIN: And is that in today's 3 world -- 15, 20 years ago all the flight instructors 4 worked for an FBO. There weren't as many guys out 5 there, individuals that -- like Oran Briley or somebody 6 else that did that kind of stuff. There weren't 7 services 20 years ago to the extent there are today that 8 come in and do turbine training, you know, for a week, 9 you know, and get -- so those guys used to have to go to 10 a place and do that. 11 MR. KENNEDY: Yeah, but that's why this 12 airport has had full services instead of just one guy 13 with a couple fuel tanks and just doing the gravy stuff. 14 We've been doing all the ancillary stuff because they 15 were requirements. Because these are things the airport 16 needs. And so that's why you need standards. 17 MR. KING: But, I don't think you can -- if 18 you look at first part of the whole thing, the thing 19 that supercedes everything about this thing is the 20 Federal grant assurances. It says they go above the 21 City, they go above the County code, and they go above 22 whatever you want to write into a minimum standard. You 23 have to comply with the FAA and the Federal regulations, 24 as far as they how they're concerned for your Federal 25 grant assurances. And that if you read any of those 30 1 grant assurances, I've read a bunch of them, the first 2 thing it says in them you cannot unduly restrict a 3 person's ability to do business on an airport. Straight 4 out. 5 MR. KENNEDY: It also says that the airport 6 in developing minimum standards has an obligation to 7 create a set of minimum standards that protects existing 8 businesses who have made investments. So that someone 9 wants to come in and if they've been held with a certain 10 requirement that someone is welcome to come in but they 11 have to have a similar and like in kind investment. And 12 it says -- 13 MR. KING: I agree, it does. It says that. 14 But also, I think you have to look at your facilities 15 and these -- 16 THE REPORTER: Excuse me, one at a time, 17 please. 18 MR. KING: What date where these minimum 19 standards written? 20 MR. WOOD: 2004 or 5. 21 MR. KING: When did you buy your FBO? 22 MR. KENNEDY: Four or five years before 23 that. John Miller Aviation and S & S also came in. 24 They were held to the same requirement. And -- 25 MR. KING: So these minimum standards were 31 1 written five years before you. 2 MR. KENNEDY: They were written five years 3 after. 4 MR. LIVERMORE: I had heard that these came 5 from McKinney largely; not really written here. 6 MR. KENNEDY: Roger Bobertz was pretty 7 involved. 8 MR. KING: The way I see it, I think Corey 9 is right, we've got to look at it and we've got to 10 see -- I mean you're crossing a very, very close line 11 there. You're saying in some of these requirements for 12 an FBO, you're stating specific requirements which are 13 unattainable by any other competitor that wanted to come 14 in here. There's not 96,000 square feet of ramp space 15 available in this airport. 16 MR. KENNEDY: Well, this is public ramp. 17 MR. KING: So what would you do build a FBO 18 over here and then use this for your ramp? 19 MR. KENNEDY: Well, I don't know. 20 MR. KING: That's what I'm getting at. I 21 don't think -- there's some points in here, I'm not 22 saying that we don't have to have restrictions, but we 23 have to have restrictions that are enforceable. 24 MR. WOOD: I want to make sense, I want to 25 be fair to both parties. 32 1 MR. KING: They just need to make sense. 2 MR. WOOD: Before we publish something, I 3 think we oughta get input from -- 4 THE REPORTER: One at a time, please. 5 MR. KING: Minimum standards to be FAA you 6 have to have a terminal. There's only one terminal. 7 MR. WOOD: No, but this would be shared by 8 everybody. 9 MR. KING: It says you have to have a 10 terminal, specifically. You have to have a terminal. 11 MR. KENNEDY: Well, if this building 12 weren't -- if this building weren't here, we were back 13 over there. 14 MR. KING: And that was your terminal. 15 MR. KENNEDY: Exactly. You have to have a 16 place to bring your customers in, but that's getting 17 into details. 18 MR. KING: I think there's a happy medium in 19 here that we can protect what we have and we don't 20 discriminate against anyone else coming on the airport. 21 MR. WALTERS: We need to look at the 22 language, and be conscious of existing operators, and 23 potentially new operators, in finding a -- conditions 24 which do not discriminate toward any of them. 25 MR. KING: Exactly. 33 1 MR. WALTERS: Or anybody. 2 MR. KING: I agree. Okay. 3 MR. WOOD: That's as far as I went through 4 this. All the way through G that you were talking 5 about, Steve. 6 MR. KING: Okay. Through the G's? 7 MR. WOOD: Well, section 2G. 8 MR. KING: 2G, yeah. 9 MR. WOOD: Yeah. So on so on so on. This 10 is the one about mobile aircraft washing. I don't think 11 anybody's following that the way it's written. 12 MR. LIVERMORE: Yeah. I think that's a 13 McKinney deal there. 14 MR. WALTERS: I have a question on page 23, 15 it talks about aircraft maintenance and repair services. 16 It's section 2G.03, 22 and then it goes on to 23. It 17 talks about an airport maintenance and repair service 18 operator shall -- and in skipping to C, not conduct 19 major maintenance and repair operations or business 20 activities at any time etc., etc. But I think this 21 language should be subject to 3A.09 and 3A.10 and that's 22 the area which says that a tenant can have somebody come 23 into their hangar and provide aircraft maintenance if 24 they have a license. 25 MR. LIVERMORE: Right. 34 1 MR. WOOD: Kind of depends on what major is. 2 MR. WALTERS: We'll add that to the list. 3 MR. WOOD: Yes. 4 MR. LIVERMORE: Are we talking about totally 5 being able to totally dismantle an engine, rebuild an 6 engine? That's major in my mind. Or are we talking 7 about something less than that? 8 MR. GRIFFIN: Major and minor is a FAR. 9 Major maintenance and minor maintenance are listed as 10 FAR's already. 11 MR. WOOD: Okay. That was my question is 12 there a definition of what major means. 13 MR. GRIFFIN: Yes. In fact it's very, very 14 succinct in the FARZ. That maybe -- 15 MR. WOOD: Maybe we could put the FAR number 16 in parenthesis. 17 MR. GRIFFIN: What I'm saying is we could 18 use that as a definition, that's where I'm going. 19 MR. LIVERMORE: I don't think that we are 20 well served by allowing Ed Livermore to bring in a 21 mechanic and remove his engine and rebuild his engine in 22 that T-hangar even though I probably have space to do 23 it. 24 MR. GRIFFIN: What are you going to do if 25 you blow a rod if you're taxiing in? 35 1 MR. McKENZIE: You tow it right over here. 2 MR. LIVERMORE: I think it's going to damage 3 that property. 4 MR. KENNEDY: The intent of that language 5 that you have maintenance shops that have overhead, they 6 have insurance, they meet all the requirements of the 7 airport. And the thinking was, do you want a bunch of 8 freelance car mechanics coming in and competing directly 9 with legitimate businesses out of the tailgate of their 10 trucks. I think that is what the thinking was. 11 MR. WALTERS: That's not accurate. They're 12 not freelance car mechanics, because we have specific 13 standards of who those people and what those conditions 14 are who can come on the airport and work on these 15 aircraft. 16 MR. LIVERMORE: Well, that's not my point 17 though. My point is I think the deeper that you get 18 into major maintenance, the muckier it gets on our -- in 19 our property. 20 MR. WOOD: What we want is to not preclude 21 somebody from doing some minor type work in his hangar. 22 Or say for instance -- I'll give you a for instance, I 23 had Ronny come over here to do my static -- 24 MR. LIVERMORE: I did, too. 25 MR. WOOD: He didn't have a shop anymore. 36 1 But we don't have an avionics shop here. So to me, and 2 that's -- that's, you know, not violating any fire codes 3 or anything. 4 MR. LIVERMORE: But that's not major. 5 MR. WOOD: I'm not talking about major. 6 MR. WALTERS: That is major, but I don't 7 think it was, you know, was obtrusive to the airport, 8 was when Grainger's plane had a strike -- prop strike 9 and had his plane in the hangar, they hired a group out 10 of Beeville to come up and take off the prop, remove the 11 engine, put it back. That's pretty major repair. But 12 it was not obtrusive at all to the airport. 13 MR. GRIFFIN: And as well I'm not sure this 14 current shop had the capabilities to do that type of 15 work on that engine. So that's why I said the statement 16 earlier it's a function of the -- of what happened. And 17 there's -- Grainger's a great example, you know. 18 There's times when because of the special needs of the 19 environment that we're operating in require you to get a 20 specialist, and you don't -- you don't take the wings 21 off of Grainger's airplane and put it on a trailer to 22 haul to San Antonio and put on an engine. You're not 23 going to do that. I think that's -- 24 MR. LIVERMORE: What, if in the course of 25 this type of work they did something wrong, and dumped 37 1 all the engine oil out on our floor? I mean that can 2 happen. 3 MR. GRIFFIN: That can happen. 4 MR. WOOD: We have things to cover that, you 5 know. 6 MR. LIVERMORE: But how do we respond? 7 MR. GRIFFIN: Well, that's a totally 8 different thing than minimum standards. That's -- 9 that's an agreement between us and user of our facility 10 and their lease. 11 MR. WOOD: I think what would be proper 12 would be for the person that owns the airplane to talk 13 to the airport manager, and say I have this situation, 14 and this is what I propose to do, is that okay. And 15 have wording in our standards that allow that. 16 MR. WALTERS: I agree. I don't -- I don't 17 think you can get that detailed to say, you know, or 18 look at the what if's, if that happened as far as oil. 19 I mean that's where we go and go, you know what, they 20 must be a licensed mechanic, you know. They must have 21 the proper license, you know. So that we know that 22 we're bringing professional people; we're not just 23 bringing somebody down here from the Exon station. 24 MR. LIVERMORE: Well, I tend to agree with 25 what Kirk said. I think what I'm talking about may be 38 1 in the lease agreement for the T-hangars or whatever, 2 but we don't want to do something in here that creates a 3 situation. I mean I've been on airports in hangers that 4 you almost want to tiptoe through. 5 MR. GRIFFIN: Well that's a different -- 6 MR. WOOD: You cover that in the lease. 7 MR. LIVERMORE: But we don't want to do 8 something here that would permit that. 9 MR. WALTERS: I can't agree with that. 10 MR. KING: Are y'all looking at under 2G.03, 11 is that what y'all are looking at under? 12 MR. WALTERS: It was under -- 13 MR. WOOD: Yeah. On 3(c). 14 MR. KING: I think 2G.03, maintenance -- 15 aircraft maintenance repair facilities. I think that's 16 addressing Dugosh Aviation. It's not a mobile facility. 17 The mobile facility is three pages later. I think 18 that's addressing those guys, strictly those guys. 19 MR. LIVERMORE: Well, I'm -- 20 MR. KING: So the sentence you must provide 21 shop space, equipment, supplies and availability of 22 parts equivalent to that required for certification by 23 the FAA as an approved repair station. Well, I think 24 this particular item is basically Dugosh you're talking 25 about. But it is under 2G.10 mobile aircraft 39 1 maintenance and repair services. 2 MR. WOOD: This document needs to be 3 flexible enough to address situations, when things 4 change. We may get another maintenance shop here that 5 could do some of those things. So a couple of things 6 if you have the guy talk to the airport manager, he can 7 make a decision whether it's proper or not. And number 8 two that also let's the airport manager know what's 9 going on. So he doesn't have to drive around and peek 10 in hangers to know what's happening. 11 MR. GRIFFIN: And well that's not his 12 function in life. 13 MR. WOOD: Well he does need to be aware. 14 MR. GRIFFIN: But again, it's not -- the 15 airport manager's job is not to police on an hourly 16 basis, you know, double parked airplanes -- 17 MR. WOOD: Well, I'm not saying that, not 18 that he would do it. I think people when they have 19 something major like that going on that's out of the 20 ordinary it's just not aircraft storage. 21 MR. GRIFFIN: Fortunately we're a small 22 enough field that most of the time if somebody cratered 23 an engine or had a prop strike everybody would know it. 24 Everybody knows who'd screwed with somebody's airplane. 25 MR. LIVERMORE: To belabor the point a 40 1 little bit, I know of an airport -- I can name several 2 actually, when people say have a hangar the size of mine 3 with that little extra room over there, and they just 4 set up a maintenance business. 5 MR. GRIFFIN: Well, but your lease says you 6 can't operate a business out of your hangar. 7 MR. LIVERMORE: I guess it does. 8 MR. GRIFFIN: It does. Our T-hangar leases 9 say those are not -- those are leased solely for storage 10 of aircraft and not for businesses. They have to be to 11 aviation related, they're for the storage -- actually, 12 you can't in the lease, our T-hangar lease says you 13 can't store a disassembled aircraft in our T-hangars. 14 MR. WOOD: Well, that's why this document 15 needs to be more general, because the leases can get 16 specific. 17 MR. GRIFFIN: Exactly. True. 18 MR. KING: It addresses T-hangars in this 19 document. It's all down the road here. Let's go from 20 2G.06 page 23 to 24, I guess. First of all I would like 21 to say on 23 like flight training services, you have to 22 have appropriate space, dada dada, this and that, but 23 having an on-duty normal business hours with at least 24 one instructor who is -- I mean, a lot of these 25 instructors are not on duty. 41 1 MR. WOOD: They're up in their airplane, 2 they can't be in their office. 3 MR. KING: You know, they make an 4 appointment and be here at 3 o'clock. So that's 5 something we're going to have to adjust something like 6 that. 7 MR. GRIFFIN: It's a different time. 8 MR. KING: All right. 24, 9 MR. WOOD: My only -- I put a question mark 10 by the mobile aircraft washing. I don't know of 11 anybody's complying with that. 12 MR. LIVERMORE: Do we even have to have 13 that? 14 MR. KING: I don't know. Have you ever had 15 a mobile washing person want to come out here and want 16 to wash airplanes? 17 MR. KENNEDY: Yes. Yeah. 18 MR. KING:. From where? 19 MR. KENNEDY: There are several people from 20 Kerrville want to come out. 21 MR. KING: They want to come out and wash 22 airplanes. 23 MR. KENNEDY: Not recently. 24 MR. KING: Do we have a designated wash 25 rack?. 42 1 MR. GRIFFIN: He does. 2 MR. KENNEDY: I do, but it's inside a hangar 3 now. Well, there's a spot over there, but I'm not sure. 4 The washing we used to do stuff on the ramp. 5 THE REPORTER: One at a time, please. 6 MR. KENNEDY: We actually have an inside 7 T-hangar that we use now. 8 MR. WOOD: We don't do any of that. 9 MR. KING: Okay. Well, we'll look at that. 10 Okay, on page 25 there's more -- three pages just on 11 washing. Okay, item 25 -- page 25, there's where your 12 mobile aircraft maintenance and repair services is. 13 Now, this would -- this would fall under people who came 14 on the airport and needed to do some work on the 15 aircraft. Or people who were on the airport who go do 16 work on an aircraft, so they have to employ at least one 17 person, which you would think if there's one of them 18 that would be sufficient. Be on duty during normal 19 business hours. I mean that's -- 20 MR. LIVERMORE: Well, if he's here working 21 it's normal business hours. 22 MR. KING: He's got to be certified by the 23 FAA. And then this item 2 on the next page on 26 only 24 conduct aircraft maintenance and repair services on 25 piston aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds 43 1 certified maximum takeoff weight. I don't know where 2 that came from. 3 MR. WOOD: That whole thing needs to be 4 looked at. 5 MR. KING: We need to look at that. 6 MR. WOOD: I think the purpose of it is to 7 say if you're going to have a maintenance business you 8 can't just work out of your truck. You have to have a 9 place of business. 10 MR. GRIFFIN: You can say that without 11 delineating piston or turbine aircraft, you know. 12 MR. KING: But also is can say -- I mean 13 what's wrong with working out of your truck? 14 MR. WALTERS: Yeah, what's wrong with Ronny 15 coming down in a truck? 16 MR. KING: We had a specific instance Ronny 17 Cramer -- Ronny Solomon coming from San Antonio, and he 18 helps out Dugosh. He's the only one that can do Pitot 19 static checks. He does them all over the airport, and 20 he comes in a -- in a little Volkswagon. 21 MR. WOOD: That needs to address reality. 22 MR. KING: And I'm assuming he has 23 insurance. The question is that Corey and I discussed 24 some of this was that he has to have insurance, or 25 whoever he's working for has to have insurance with him 44 1 as a named insured. As a named insured or something 2 like that. 3 MR. GRIFFIN: Yeah. Is he working under the 4 title of Dugosh at that time, or is he working under the 5 title of an independent contractor. 6 MAYOR PRATT: I think you need to have 7 insurance on both. Because he reaches -- he reaches 8 airport property, and then he goes on airport property 9 until he gets to say, you know, Dugosh or whatever. 10 What happens between the two, he's got to have insurance 11 for himself, too. 12 MR. WOOD: I think in Ronny's case -- 13 MAYOR PRATT: In other words he hits 14 somebody else's airplane. He has got to work on it, is 15 a good example. 16 MR. KING: You got automobile insurance. 17 MAYOR PRATT: No. 18 MR. GRIFFIN: It's a conversation to have 19 exactly, he's on the field as an employee -- it goes 20 back to the is he on the field as an employee of Dugosh, 21 or as a private sub? And you know, if he's working -- 22 I don't know -- I don't know Ronny's agreement with the 23 guys over at Dugosh, don't really care to know, but 24 where I'm going -- 25 MAYOR PRATT: My point is when you get to 45 1 Court, are the lawyers going to say he is not working 2 for Dugosh until he arrives at Dugosh's place. 3 MR. KENNEDY: He does work on a lot of 4 people's stuff out there. There has to be -- the 5 problem is there's two different issues. There's a 6 difference between coming -- somebody coming out of San 7 Antonio and working on Grainger's stuff. We need to 8 have some language because the language right now just 9 precludes any of that, it's just a blanket statement. 10 We need to have permission so people can do stuff like 11 that. But y'all also have to figure out a way to have 12 some language that protects existing businesses that 13 have established doors and it's difficult. I don't know 14 how to answer the question. 15 MR. WOOD: And to do it right. To have 16 proper certifications. 17 MR. KENNEDY: Do you want legitimate store 18 front businesses on your airport, or do you want to have 19 a whole bunch of little stuff. And it's a difficult 20 question to answer. 21 MR. KING: Well, I'll tell you another 22 instance, you have Karl who works for Cusick who goes 23 and does work on Grainger's plane, he works on Corey's 24 airplane. 25 MR. KENNEDY: My airplane. And according to 46 1 the current standards it's technically illegal. 2 MR. KING: Then he shouldn't be doing it. 3 He's basically -- 4 MR. WOOD: Pull it into a hangar that's 5 designed just for that. 6 MR. KING: So I mean -- but we'll -- you 7 know you can't preclude, you can't restrict your 8 services for your -- for your airport tenants by, you 9 know, over -- making these over -- I mean 'cuz if Ronny 10 doesn't come up here and do Pitot Static checks on my 11 airplane or your airplane, you got to drive it to San 12 Antonio -- you got to fly to San Antonio and get them to 13 do it and it's very inconvenient. And I think if, you 14 know, if obviously these guys over here have the 15 facility, if they had a Pitot static, if they had a -- 16 what do you call it? If they had -- 17 MR. WOOD: The capability to do it. 18 MR. KING: -- the capability to do it then 19 it would be a different situation, you know. But you 20 know, even though they may have a turbine technician 21 over here, he may not be able to work on Corey's 22 airplane. 23 MR. KENNEDY: Well, at the same time Corey 24 should have a right to choose who works on his airplane. 25 If Corey has a problem with the existing shop, I'm not 47 1 saying he does, he should have the right to bring in who 2 he wants to work on his airplane. 3 MR. KING: You shouldn't be forced to -- 4 MR. KENNEDY: Yeah, it's just a difficult 5 thing when you got existing business owners who want 6 protection because they got a significant investment, 7 and then you got, you know, the right of the individual 8 aircraft owner who wants to bring in who they want to 9 work on their aircraft. Good luck with that. 10 MAYOR PRATT: And I agree, and you can take 11 that further. If you want somebody who wants to store 12 their airplane here but then you got restrictions on who 13 they can use to work on their plane, how. Then they're 14 not going to come here, they're going to stay where 15 they're at. 16 MR. KING: That's a very, very good point. 17 We need to look at that. Okay. Vehicle concession 18 services, anybody have any questions on that? 19 MR GRIFFIN: Just needs to be addressed. 20 MR. KING: Okay. Article III, rules and 21 regulations. 28. 29. 22 MR. WOOD: My only comment on page 30 was 23 where it talks about major aircraft alterations, and if 24 you put the FAR regulation in parenthesis, that would 25 define that. 48 1 MR. GRIFFIN: And any time we go back and 2 use those as our base line. 3 MR. WALTERS: A comment on 3A.10 aircraft 4 T-hangars, I suggest that we add that except by properly 5 licensed persons or by written approval by the airport 6 manager. We add that maintenance is allowed in addition 7 to prior written approval that we allow, you know, by a 8 proper licensed person. 9 MR. KING: Are you on 3A.10? 10 MR. WALTERS: Uh-huh, (a). Major aircraft 11 alterations and repairs or preventive maintenance shall 12 not be conducted in front -- in or from any hangar for 13 any aircraft not listed on the permit or lease for that 14 hangar, it says without prior written approval from the 15 airport manager. And I am suggesting after hangar we 16 add except by properly licensed persons. So I don't 17 know if we want to make it so that if somebody's getting 18 work they got to notify Bruce every time somebody goes 19 down there and changes some oil or does a Pitot static 20 test, you know, or if we just say, you know, if you got 21 a proper license then you can you do it. 22 MRS. DUNGAN: Gentlemen, what if they fill 23 out one of our permits so that they're listed on the 24 airport. 25 MR. GRIFFIN: Well -- 49 1 MRS. DUNGAN: It says airport maintenance on 2 there. 3 MR. GRIFFIN: Yeah, but I think the way our 4 current permit is those have to come to the Board for 5 approval? 6 MRS. DUNGAN: No; airport manager. But see 7 if it's approved by the manager -- 8 MR. GRIFFIN: I don't want to make the Board 9 have to have approval if the guys filled out the right 10 paperwork in the office here. That's where I'm going. 11 MR. WOOD: Well, what if you want to change 12 your oil in your own hangar on your own airplane. 13 MR. GRIFFIN: You can do that under your 14 FAR. 15 MR. WOOD: That is what this says? 16 MR. GRIFFIN: Yeah. 17 MR. WOOD: The FAR's lets you do certain 18 things. 19 MR. GRIFFIN: Change tires. 20 MR. WOOD: But this says preventive aircraft 21 maintenance cannot be conducted; changing oil is. 22 MAYOR PRATT: Isn't that talking about 23 outside the hangar rather than inside? 24 MR. GRIFFIN: No. It just says in any 25 hangar. 50 1 MRS. DUNGAN: That's addressed in your 2 lease, so -- 3 MAYOR PRATT: If it's in your lease you 4 oughta pull it out of there and -- 5 THE REPORTER: Excuse me. 6 MAYOR PRATT: My suggestion is look if it's 7 in the lease, pull it out of this. 8 MR. WOOD: Yeah, make this more general and 9 let that be specific. 10 MAYOR PRATT: Yeah, because if they don't 11 match then you got to argue which one you comply with. 12 MR. LIVERMORE: It goes back to -- 13 MR. GRIFFIN: Before you say you can change 14 your oil and change your tires -- 15 MRS. DUNGAN: But with the -- 16 MR. KENNEDY: Kirk's right. The whole 17 purpose for these are more generalized to have a set of 18 standards to determine how to structure their leases so 19 that everybody's lease is similar and there's a standard 20 to everybody. So you don't have one guy that has a 21 lease that says he has to do one thing, another guy 22 doing the same thing you have to tell the other guy -- 23 that's the purpose for these -- 24 MR. GRIFFIN: Yeah. 25 THE REPORTER: (Hands in air.) 51 1 MRS. DUNGAN: Well, but my point is I was 2 making with the business permits, then it falls to Bruce 3 to make sure that they are certified and they have the 4 insurance, and they are -- they can come on and work for 5 anyone on the airport. And they don't have to check in, 6 they've been approved. 7 MR. GRIFFIN: Well, and that's -- yes. 8 MR. WOOD: When they come to Bruce and they 9 say, Ed Livermore asked me to come in and do this 10 minor -- 11 MR. LIVERMORE: Repair. 12 MR. WOOD: -- repair to his plane, then you 13 or Bruce could say okay, we'll approve that, but by the 14 way if you to want fill out a business permit then you 15 won't have to come ask every time -- 16 MRS. DUNGAN: Exactly. 17 MR. WOOD: -- or something like that. 18 MR. WALTERS: Is there a charge for this 19 business permit? 20 MRS. DUNGAN: No, Sir. 21 MR. WALTERS: We'll add that in there. 22 MR. WOOD: Do we want to leave patio hangars 23 terminology in here? 24 MR. LIVERMORE: I didn't understand. We 25 don't even have those, do we? 52 1 MR. WOOD: There's some down there by 2 Dugosh, they're not ours. 3 MR. GRIFFIN: They're gone. 4 MR. WOOD: It's just a roof. 5 MR. GRIFFIN: An awning. 6 MR. LIVERMORE: Oh. That's what they -- 7 you mean -- 8 MR. WOOD: No sides. Carport. 9 MR. LIVERMORE: Carport. Yeah, they're 10 gone. 11 MR. GRIFFIN: We haven't had any in a couple 12 years. I don't think the present Board would approve 13 it. 14 MR. LIVERMORE: Well, they're very popular 15 in a lot of places. But anyway -- 16 MR. WOOD: Page 32 we referred to some stuff 17 that maybe we don't have like wash racks. 18 MR. GRIFFIN: That's in the FBO requirement 19 section, right? Or what section is that in? 20 MR. WOOD: Page 32. What's the top 21 paragraph? Oh wait a minute, 3A. It's got one 3A.13 22 wash racks, 3A.12 Maintenance. 23 MR. GRIFFIN: It's under T-hangars. 24 MR. WOOD: Well, not actually. It's -- 25 MR. GRIFFIN: We just need to look at this 53 1 document again. We got an issue where our current 2 implementation of how the field operates is not in 3 compliance with our minimum standards. And we need to 4 just look across the board and -- 5 MR. WOOD: Look for all of those. 6 MR. GRIFFIN: -- and say does this still 7 apply in today's realm. It's just a -- 8 MR. KING: On page 33, item (b) under 9 self-services it says that you can hire an individual or 10 a technical specialist to provide, under his own 11 direction and supervision, services only on the owner's 12 based aircraft. 13 MR. WOOD: Is that anywhere on the airport, 14 or is that back at -- 15 MR. KING: No, that's not relating to patio 16 hangars. You're off of that again, so that's -- 17 MR. GRIFFIN: Yeah, that's in the T-hangar. 18 MR. WOOD: Section (a) there, Steve, says 19 you can repair your airplane in your own hangar, by 20 yourself. 21 MR. KING: Paint, too. 22 MR. WOOD: Or paint it. 23 MR. KING: You wash, repair -- fuel, wash, 24 repair and paint. Pretty much everything you need to do 25 right there, and you can go fly. 54 1 MR. LIVERMORE: But you're not allowed to do 2 that. 3 (Off the record.) 4 MRS. DUNGAN: Again, gentlemen, (c) says 5 that they have to notify the airport manager at least 6 one hour before the technical specialist performing the 7 services arrives. 8 MR. WALTERS: If I'm doing any of those 9 other things, I don't have to notify anybody. 10 MR. KING: You can paint. 11 MAYOR PRATT: You got my attention here, 12 Steve. If they can paint in that hangar I question 13 whether they -- 14 MR. WALTERS: I agree, it needs to be 15 revised and I -- 16 MAYOR PRATT: Because they shouldn't be 17 allowed to paint in that hangar. Well, the thing is 18 then the question is do you have explosion outlets, 19 explosion proof outlets, and all of the other stuff, and 20 that's not going to comply with the City Code. 21 MR. KING: And it does say you can wash your 22 own airplane. The painting I think isn't right. 23 MR. LIVERMORE: The painting needs to go. 24 MR. KING: You were worried about a little 25 oil on the floor. 55 1 MR. LIVERMORE: I didn't say we're okay on 2 the oil, we might as well paint them, too. 3 MR. WOOD: Because it conflicts with stuff 4 we already said. Major aircraft alterations and repairs 5 are prohibited on the airport, except by a person 6 holding a valid business permit, or by the owner of the 7 aircraft. 8 MR. LIVERMORE: Business permit of the type 9 that's issued by Bruce's office? 10 MR. WOOD: I assume so, yes. 11 MR. KING: Okay. Item -- page 34, that item 12 33 -- item -- excuse me, item 3A.22 -- this is the 13 old -- well, this is actually to lease -- this would be 14 all lease holders. 15 MR. WOOD: Yeah. That pertains to Kerrville 16 Aviation, it pertains to all the flight instructors and 17 their office. To Harry. 18 MR. KING: That you have to maintain it. 19 MR. LIVERMORE: Probably T-hangars and 20 everything, correct? 21 MR. WOOD: And to us, to the T-hangars, 22 right. 23 MR. WALTERS: I think we'll need some 24 direction in terms of -- a legal opinion in terms of if 25 we have a conflict between this language and the lease, 56 1 what prevails. Because obviously this language, there's 2 many conflicts in this language with some of our leases. 3 MR. KING: Right. Like Grainger, we're 4 paying for all that structure over at Grainger's hangar 5 that we lease to him, but it says that he should be 6 providing his own -- fixing his broken glass, and 7 changing his light bulbs and stuff like that in that 8 hangar, but we're paying for all that. So I think 9 that's -- 10 MR. WOOD: We need to check it out for 11 compatibility and revise it accordingly, okay. 12 MR. KING: Okay. That's a good one. 13 MAYOR PRATT: You know, I'm going to make a 14 comment here, I'm going to use Grainger as an example. 15 You -- of course he's grandfathered, but -- 16 MR. WALTERS: How so? 17 MAYOR PRATT: Do what? 18 MR. WALTERS: How so? 19 MAYOR PRATT: Well, he's grandfathered 20 because of the fact he has a lease that allows him to do 21 it now. 22 MR. KENNEDY: Any leases that have been done 23 in the last five or six years actually have language and 24 mine do. They actually have language in there that says 25 the minimum standards. Yeah, all the new ones have it 57 1 on there. 2 MAYOR PRATT: Corey, in your business, you 3 lease a building, they're going to take care of their 4 own maintenance. And you don't -- so if you have 5 somebody else -- 6 MR. WALTERS: Not always. 7 MAYOR PRATT: Do you want to be able to go 8 back and say hey, you know, you take care of your own 9 maintenance on your broken glass or whatever. 10 MR. KING: That's an interesting question. 11 When those leases that we -- like we did Grainger and 12 Corey and all these others, does it reflect back to the 13 minimum standards in all those leases? 14 MR. WALTERS: They do. 15 MRS. DUNGAN: Uh-huh. 16 MR. KING: Because if says under item (f), 17 it says maintenance of all doors and door operating 18 systems, including weather stripping and glass 19 replacement is supposed to be paid for by the lessees. 20 MR. WALTERS: And also as far as the 21 T-hangars, are the tenants of the T-hangars responsible 22 for all the doors, or is the airport responsible for 23 those? 24 MR. KING: Good question. 25 MR. GRIFFIN: Fortunately, we haven't gotten 58 1 into any of those. 2 MR. LIVERMORE: I think that the airport 3 bares some responsibility for maintaining the property 4 in a leasable manner. 5 MR. GRIFFIN: Well, and that's what -- but 6 again, that's what we need to address here is -- 7 MAYOR PRATT: And let me just respond to 8 what you said. If I've got a hangar leased out here in 9 one of the new T-hangars, a bi-fold door, who's 10 responsible to keep them oiled and greased, the person 11 there who's doing the preventative maintenance? I mean 12 if they're doing preventative maintenance then they 13 should be responsible for the -- in other words, if 14 I'm -- if I'm the lessee I've got to argue and say it's 15 not my lease that says I've got to keep it greased and 16 maintained. 17 MR. GRIFFIN: What you're saying is 18 applicable. There's nothing in your lease that says you 19 have to maintain that door, but the flip side of it is 20 there's not anything in the lease that says the airport 21 should maintain the door. That's where he's going, is 22 we've got some short side of -- 23 MR. LIVERMORE: Well, I think if the door 24 breaks, or falls off track or whatever, the tenant has a 25 right to expect the airport to return it to 59 1 serviceable -- 2 MR. WALTERS: Not according to these minimum 3 standards. 4 MR. GRIFFIN: Not according to this. 5 MAYOR PRATT: My point is that the tenant 6 was supposed to keep those rollers oiled and greased, so 7 that what happened wouldn't have happened. 8 MR. KING: Well, I think it's more of a -- 9 it's more of an issue when you look at Brinkman hangar, 10 because we wrote that lease and said that we would pay 11 for all the maintenance, electricity, all expenses over 12 there, and now it's turning into a deal where you know 13 we're fixing the doors, we're paying -- we didn't 14 realize one of the tenants was going to put in an office 15 and an air-conditioning system and stuff like that. And 16 now our electric bill -- we're paying electric on the 17 whole deal over there where we thought it was just going 18 to be a few lights. 19 MR. WALTERS: Washer and dryer. 20 MR. KING: Washer and dryer. So I mean this 21 was a lot of expenses that we took on over there that we 22 didn't realize. One hangar incurs almost no expense, 23 and the other half is we're paying all those expenses 24 over there. You ask Bruce and Carole, we never 25 anticipated that. That was something we never 60 1 anticipated in the lease that, you know, thank God he's 2 not doing -- they're not doing anything over there 3 that's more electrically intensive, because we're paying 4 for all that. And we never anticipated the doors 5 opening up 14 times a day versus one side of the 6 building that opens up once a week. And so you know 7 those are things that we didn't anticipate in the lease. 8 But they are addressed in the minimum standards. So I 9 think you would have a good case for going back and 10 saying -- 11 MR. WALTERS: Well, because the leases are 12 always subject to -- 13 MR. KING: The minimum standards. 14 MR. WALTERS: -- the minimum standards. 15 MR. KING: And I think with the T-hangars 16 it's a little bit different. 17 MR. LIVERMORE: Yeah. Simpler operation. 18 MR. KING: Simpler operation. And like the 19 Mayor said I think you are responsible to maintain your 20 T-hangar. But I think we got on top of Mooney over here 21 for years and years of neglect on those buildings over 22 there. You know we were criticized for that, and we 23 criticized Mooney for just barely leaving the hangar -- 24 even though that was not their hangar, but they were 25 leasing the hangar, and according to the lease, and 61 1 according to the minimum standards they should maintain 2 the hangar in the condition, I believe, it was given to 3 you as I believe -- 4 MR. WALTERS: Ordinary wear and tear. 5 MR. KING: Ordinary wear and tear, something 6 like that. That is something we definitely should look 7 at as it reflects to these minimum standards. 8 MAYOR PRATT: And that's also the reason why 9 you want the airport manager to make periodic 10 inspections. 11 MR. KING: Well, we don't want the hangar 12 back in 30 years that we have to bulldoze, we have to 13 bulldoze in 35 years. Or we get it back and we have to 14 spend 20 thousand dollars to get it back into leasable 15 conditions. 16 MR. WALTERS: And I think it goes back to -- 17 I think really to the lease that you originally make, is 18 it needs to have language in there that it says that the 19 tenant will, you know, perform routine maintenance on 20 the doors, or systems, or operating systems of the 21 premises or the space. I think that's where we put the 22 obligation on the tenant for some of those things. And 23 then there's no question about who's responsible. 24 MR. KING: In the first paragraph here all 25 leaseholders shall, at all times, and at its own costs 62 1 and expense, maintain the leased premises in good repair 2 and condition, ordinary wear and tear and damage, or 3 taking casualty or condemnation expected. I mean -- 4 MAYOR PRATT: Include preventative 5 maintenance should be in there. 6 MR. KING: That you should take care of it 7 in a certain manner. In other words you shouldn't just 8 let it go to crud. 9 MR. WALTERS: And there were different 10 manners in which you can address these things. I mean 11 as an example, I mean I have some space that where we're 12 required, we're responsible for the replacement of the 13 HVAC system. But at the same time we also require the 14 tenant at their expense to keep in place a yearly 15 maintenance agreement. So they're, you know -- they're 16 hiring a contractor and HVAC contractor on a yearly 17 basis to come out there and perform maintenance on, you 18 know, the unit. Not just let it run until it, you know, 19 blows up and then I have to replace it. So you know 20 they do the normal annual maintenance on it, and then at 21 such time that it does expire then I come in there and 22 replace the unit. 23 MR. WOOD: This is a little bit off the 24 subject, but what if we have a bad wind storm like could 25 have had last night and one of these big expensive 63 1 bi-fold doors blows off or is damaged? 2 MR. LIVERMORE: It probably won't do that, 3 but it's likely to do that over in where I used to be. 4 That actually happened there. 5 MR. WALTERS: It happened in the Brinkman 6 hangar. 7 MR. GRIFFIN: It happened right there. 8 MR. WOOD: I know Joey had experience with 9 this, because one of the doors blew off hangar 4 last 10 time. 11 MR. KENNEDY: In the last 25 years I've had 12 several hangers but -- 13 MR. WOOD: So are they insured, and who 14 insures them? 15 MR. GRIFFIN: You pay for that. 16 MR. KENNEDY: I'm insured for that kind of 17 stuff. 18 MR. KING: He owns his building. 19 MAYOR PRATT: He's asking about the 20 T-hangars though. 21 MRS. DUNGAN: We insure them. We have 22 insurance on them. 23 MR. GRIFFIN: The insurance on those 24 buildings the airport carries. 25 MR. KENNEDY: But if you read your policy if 64 1 that door comes in on the T-hangars and lands on top of 2 one of your tenant's aircraft and in an act of God, I 3 guarantee your insurance policy reads that in the event 4 of an act of God, the aircraft owner insurance is 5 responsible for his -- for his airplane and you're 6 responsible for your hangar -- 7 MR. GRIFFIN: That's understood in the 8 lease. 9 MR. KING: Yeah. And it says in here in the 10 minimum standards, and it doesn't require the lessee to 11 construct any improvement, require the lessee to repair 12 or rebuild any improvement after casualty or damage, so 13 it says that here. And they've got all the wording in 14 this thing here. It has, you know, pretty good wording 15 as to who's responsible for what. 16 MR. LIVERMORE: The good news about the 17 bi-fold is that when they are -- when those cam locks 18 are deployed, they're pretty much part of the building. 19 It's the whole building will go before the door will go, 20 I think. 21 MR. KING: Anyway we need to look at that 22 like Corey said. We need to kind of see who -- I have a 23 feeling the minimum standards probably supercede. 24 MR. WALTERS: It does. 25 MR. KING: And then we just gotta figure out 65 1 how we want to handle that, or how we're handling that 2 fundamentally to the lessee. Okay. Anybody on anything 3 on -- 4 MR. WOOD: I have one comment on page 35, 5 under 3A.25. Where it talks about model aircraft, etc., 6 etc. Would that be a good place to put a drone policy 7 for the airport? In other words, what happens if 8 somebody's flying a drone over here, and Briley runs 9 into it when he's teaching his students. 10 MR. KENNEDY: The zoning around the airport, 11 I think it's five miles that you can't fly those. 12 MR. KING: That drones are required to be -- 13 required to be registered with the FAA. 14 MR. LIVERMORE: Has the City done -- 15 MAYOR PRATT: Well, we're working on it, but 16 there's a big gap in the FAA. FAA picks up after it 17 weighs -- no. After it weighs a certain amount, and 18 then it picks up. And so, the question arises, is what 19 happens where is it regulated when that drone is less 20 than a pound? 21 MR. WOOD: I think there's also -- 22 MAYOR PRATT: And I'm just throwing out a 23 number. I don't know what the exact -- 24 MR. GRIFFIN: And there's also a 25 relationship in proximity of airports. There were some 66 1 FAA regs within a certain -- and I can't -- I don't 2 remember what those are, or what they are because I 3 don't fly them. 4 MR. WOOD: Section 3A.25 says per FAA 5 criteria no person shall fly, release or use a model 6 aircraft, rocket, kite, fireworks, laser, balloon, etc., 7 within five miles of the airport, if such activity would 8 create a hazard to aircraft operations. And I just 9 thought you should add drones. 10 MAYOR PRATT: I think you should add drones. 11 I agree. 12 MR. WOOD: When they wrote this they didn't 13 exist. 14 MR. KENNEDY: The flying club over by the 15 landfill was in that area and so they actually had to 16 restrict them to a certain elevation that they could not 17 exceed. 18 MR. LIVERMORE: Whatever happened to the old 19 RC airplane? Has that been -- I mean is that a drone? 20 MR. GRIFFIN: No, it's in a different 21 category. It's under remotely piloted vehicles. But 22 it's not -- I don't know all the details, but it's 23 there. 24 MAYOR PRATT: Call it a hobby airplane. 25 MR. KING: So it's more than point 55 67 1 pounds, it's more than a half a pound. A little over a 2 half a pound is considered an unmanned whatever you call 3 it. They call them a -- 4 MAYOR PRATT: A drone, yeah. I knew there 5 was a limitation, so if it's under -- 6 MR. KING: And less than 55. And if it's 7 less than 55 pounds. Anything over 55 pounds is a 8 different deal. I think it's an unmanned vehicle or 9 something. And they all have to be registered now. And 10 the reason they do the registering because if you hit 11 something, they can figure out whose it was. 12 MAYOR PRATT: Like you have a tail number. 13 MR. KING: The drone's have the same thing. 14 I think if it hits your airplane and you can recover it 15 they'll find out who belongs to. 16 MR. LIVERMORE: Yeah, I've got so many of 17 them. 18 MR. KING: Okay. Page -- I guess we're 19 going to add that drone to 35. 20 MR. KING: Anything on 36? 37? Does 21 your -- Joey, does your requirements -- are you required 22 to have a flight instruction airplane? 23 MR. KENNEDY: Yes, we're required to have 24 flight instruction. 25 MR. KING: So do you consider that to be an 68 1 undue requirement? 2 MR. KENNEDY: I've been doing it for 25 3 years. 4 MR. KING: I know, but do you really think 5 that -- I mean it's a little bit off the topic, but I 6 mean, I was thinking about this. Doesn't that go back 7 to a long time ago that -- 8 MR. KENNEDY: Well, it goes back to -- 9 MR. KING: -- FBO's -- 10 MR. KENNEDY: -- an FBO that's coming in 11 here that wants to make an investment on the airport and 12 the airport was looking at it, and the airport wanted 13 all these things. So if you want to come in and say 14 yes, you're going to do all these other services and to 15 be required to do it so from a self preservation 16 standpoint, if I've been required to do all those 17 things, whether I may or may not -- I mean I may have 18 gotten out of the rental aircraft business a long time 19 ago, but at this point in time though, if I've got a 20 competitor that wants to come in and put in fuel tanks 21 to compete against me, I want those requirements to stay 22 in there, because it's -- because it's things that I've 23 been required to do for all these times, and now I want 24 somebody else to do it. You would do the same thing. 25 MR. WOOD: One of the questions that we 69 1 might have for you is -- 2 MR. KENNEDY: Is there any more money in it, 3 no. 4 MR. WOOD: -- do you want to keep doing it? 5 I mean -- 6 MR. KENNEDY: I'm going to keep doing it 7 because you know we're down to one airplane, and there's 8 people that still use it. And these flight instructors 9 and stuff. And you know it doesn't make any money, but 10 it gives me something to fly when I want to. And I 11 think the airport needs something, someone to do it so 12 I've been continuing to do it. 13 MR. KING: Are you required to have a 14 courtesy car? 15 MR. KENNEDY: I don't remember if there's a 16 requirement. That goes back to -- I mean we're in 17 business. If you're going to be in the business 18 there's things your customers are going to require of 19 you. 20 MR. KING: Right. Okay. 21 MR. KENNEDY: Whether the requirements are 22 there from the airport your customers are going to 23 demand it of you anyway, so I think -- 24 MR. KING: Okay. Anything on 37, flying 25 clubs? We don't have any flying clubs, do we? Used to. 70 1 Had the Mooney club for a long time. 2 Living quarters, no. 3 MR. LIVERMORE: Where's Bruce? 4 MR. KING: He had to leave, brother-in-law 5 died. 6 Anything on 38? Some of this stuff here, I 7 don't know. Land on a runway. 8 MR. WOOD: An aircraft that exceeds the 9 wingspan for the T-hangar can't park there. 10 MR. KENNEDY: If you're fast enough you can. 11 MR. KING: Some of that stuff is covered in 12 the FAR's, like landing on a -- you have to land on a 13 runway. I don't think the FAR's says you have to land 14 on a runway. I think you can land on a taxiway. 15 Because you're always responsible for the safety of -- 16 MR. KENNEDY: Well, we do get guys coming in 17 here with older antique type aircraft that don't want to 18 land them on the asphalt, but if you go out there and 19 start landing on the grass, and you gotta have some rule 20 in there saying you can't just go anywhere and land 21 wherever you want. 22 MR. LIVERMORE: Does anyone do that? 23 MR. KENNEDY: Oh, yeah. Happens all the 24 time. Not as much here anymore. There's actually -- 25 there's rules including ultralight aircraft on this 71 1 airport. But when the ultralights were here they would 2 do it all the time. 3 MR. LIVERMORE: Would they land out here in 4 the middle? 5 MR. KENNEDY: They used to land in the 6 middle. But before that -- but they would land between 7 the runway and taxiway and the runway all the time. 8 MR. KING: I believe you can't have an 9 airplane that's too big for the T-hangar. 10 MR. LIVERMORE: Maybe they were thinking of 11 folding wings. 12 MR. GRIFFIN: I think what they were 13 thinking was we won't lease just because you say you 14 have a T-hangar lease, doesn't mean you can park your 15 airplane in front of the door or someplace here. It 16 doesn't give you a right to do that. 17 MR. KING: I think that item 3(d) formation 18 takeoffs are prohibited except for permission of the 19 airport manager for special events. I don't think 20 that's -- I think that's not a FAR. I think the 21 formation takeoff, you can take off, that's not a 22 prohibitive activity. 23 MR. LIVERMORE: We used to have three guys a 24 couple years ago that did it all the time. 25 MR. KING: I don't think that's something 72 1 that you -- I guess you could prohibit it, but it's only 2 as needed. 3 MR. LIVERMORE: I wouldn't prohibit it. 4 MR. KING: It's still at the safety of 5 the -- the pilot in command is still -- is the ultimate 6 -- he has the ultimate -- 7 MR. WOOD: They just have to agree with each 8 other they're going to do it. The FAR'S limit -- 9 MR. KING: But I don't think we need to get 10 Bruce involved in that. 11 MR. LIVERMORE: No. No. 12 MR. KING: The next one helicopters, 13 disabled aircraft, ultralight. Ultralight may land -- 14 no ultralight may land or take off from the airport 15 without prior written permission of the airport manager. 16 MR. KENNEDY: I think that's a violation. 17 MR. KING: I don't think you can do that. 18 You're restricting someone to use the -- that's like 19 saying you couldn't let a blimp land here. 20 MR. GRIFFIN: We've had that happen. 21 MR. KING: I think I'll just get rid of 22 that. Anybody got any on 40? 23 MR. WOOD: All I could say is I've 24 occasionally violated this. 25 MR. KING: Well, we sure make note of that. 73 1 MRS. DUNGAN: I'm writing you a ticket 2 today. 3 MR. KING: I think -- which one have you 4 violated just out of curiosity? 5 MR. WOOD: Well, done several of them. I 6 drove my car over to Mooney the other day when we went 7 to take a tour. I guess Bruce was with us, so that 8 wouldn't qualify. But there's plenty of times you and I 9 have both done that. 10 MR. LIVERMORE: What is that, drive a car. 11 MR. WOOD: Without permission of the airport 12 manager. 13 MR. LIVERMORE: On the ramp? 14 MR. WOOD: Anywhere. 15 MR. LIVERMORE: I've done that. 16 MR. KING: Okay. Don't have anything on 17 that. Item 42, vehicles. 18 MR. WOOD: Well, this pertains to anything 19 that's not an airplane that's stored on the airport. 20 Maybe just have to have consent. 21 MR. KING: Right. 22 MRS. DUNGAN: Which one we talking about, 23 gentlemen? 24 MR. KING: Page 43. 25 MR. WOOD: Page 42. 74 1 MR. KING: Oh, page 42. 2 MR. WOOD: Motor homes, boats, recreational 3 vehicles, scooters, bicycles, whatever. 4 MR. KING: Okay. Fuel safety. 5 MR. GRIFFIN: I think that will just need to 6 be looked at, and make sure it's in compliance with -- 7 MR. KING: Okay. 8 MR. WOOD: Talks about a bunch of codes, 9 which assumes you drove around your airplane or if the 10 guy in the fuel truck drives your airplane, they're in 11 compliance. 12 MR. HUGHES: Does it address people who are 13 not fueling airplanes? 14 MR. KING: As far as? 15 MR. HUGHES: Filling up their gas cans, and 16 their dump truck, not -- 17 MRS. DUNGAN: You talking about self serve 18 purposes? 19 MR. HUGHES: Yeah, self serve pumps. 20 MR. WOOD: No, I don't think it does. It 21 only refers to the International Code Council, City 22 Council, Advisory Circular 150 -- blah blah blah. 23 MR. KING: We do have people who come get 24 gas from the self service for their cars and stuff. 25 MR. WOOD: Well, for your power tools or 75 1 something, you might come out there and poor a gallon. 2 MR. KING: What would you say, need to be 3 careful? 4 MR. GRIFFIN: Kind of hard to ground a 5 plastic can. 6 MR. WOOD: Put your cigarette out. Don't 7 talk on your cell phone. 8 MR. KING: Anybody have anything on 44? 9 MR. WOOD: Aircraft fueling locations. This 10 says don't do it in here, inside any hangar. 11 MR. KING: 25 feet from a building. 12 MR. WOOD: You have to have a fueling 13 operation permit in order to do that. 14 MR. KING: Number 45? Nothing. 46? 15 MR. WOOD: This talks about getting permits 16 if they're going to self fuel, and it talks about 17 vehicle fuel. This is a section that takes into 18 consideration self fueling. 19 MR. WOOD: I don't know would you read that 20 to say you can't have a five gallon gas can? 21 MR. KING: It says in another place you 22 can't do that, didn't it? 23 MR. WOOD: I'm not sure. 24 MR. KING: I thought it says somewhere else 25 about bringing fuel on the airport. 76 1 MR. WOOD: On that same page talks about 2 tanks not exceeding one-gallon capacity used solely for 3 sampling and testing are allowed. I mean how about the 4 guys with the mowers? I mean they have to put fuel in 5 their mowers somehow. I would assume they have a gas 6 can that they use to fill them up unless they drive the 7 mower to town. 8 MRS. DUNGAN: Talking about our guys? 9 MR. WOOD: Yeah. I mean, you know, portable 10 gas cans, I'm sure we use them. 11 MR. GRIFFIN: We got a bunch of them up 12 there. 13 MRS. DUNGAN: Absolutely. 14 MR. GRIFFIN: As does you know Corey fuels 15 his tractor up, trailer and -- 16 MR. KING: That would be under vehicle fuel? 17 MR. WOOD: Yeah. We oughta address portable 18 gas cans, and leave them in there, I just hadn't seen 19 it. 20 MR. KING: We'll look for it. 21 MR. WALTERS: I think there was something in 22 there under one gallon. 23 MR. WOOD: Yeah, it says tanks not exceeding 24 one gallon. But you wouldn't want to go fill up your 25 mower -- 77 1 MR. GRIFFIN: Most of those mowers hold 2 about 12 gallons. 3 MR. KING: How does Corey fill up his 4 tractor? 5 MR. GRIFFIN: He's got a trailer with about 6 a 200 gallon tank on it and electric fuel pump. 7 MR. KING: We'll put something in there 8 about that. All right. Okay. Item 47 -- page 47. It 9 never ends, does it? Anybody? Nothing. Page 48. 49. 10 MR. LIVERMORE: I don't have a copy of any 11 of this unfortunately. I just thought we were talking 12 about Article II. 13 MRS. DUNGAN: Mr. Livermore, would you like 14 this copy? 15 MR. LIVERMORE: Do you have a copy of it? 16 MRS. DUNGAN: Yeah, I'm up to page 49. 17 MR. WOOD: 49 just says how you do rules, 18 how you make rules, when they go into effect. I don't 19 have any problem with it myself. 20 MR. KING: Item 50 -- page 50? Nothing, 21 blank. 51. 52 is blank. 53 is enforcement. 22 MR. LIVERMORE: Lawyer stuff. 23 MR. KING: Yeah. 54. This is where it 24 gives Bruce a right to inspect in his normal course of 25 duties, and enter property or buildings and stuff. 78 1 MR. LIVERMORE: He has a key to every unit, 2 doesn't he? 3 MRS. DUNGAN: Yes, Sir. 4 MR KING: Page 55. 56. 57. 58 and 59. 60 5 is blank. And these are the definitions in 61. 6 MR. WOOD: Then all the forms. I don't have 7 any comments. 8 MRS. DUNGAN: We do not have -- as mentioned 9 in the code is we do not have a self service fuel 10 permit. Bruce and I put one together. 11 MR. KING: A self-fueling permit, yeah, 12 Bruce showed me that. 13 MRS. DUNGAN: We have to have the Board 14 approve. 15 MR. LIVERMORE: What is that? 16 MR. KING: We don't have a -- we don't have 17 a permit for self fueling on the airport. 18 MRS. DUNGAN: Even though it's mentioned in 19 the -- 20 MR. KING: So they made up that permit. 21 MR. WOOD: What do you mean by self fueling 22 though, it's like going to the self service pump? 23 MR. KING: No. It says in that paragraph -- 24 and it is -- 25 MR. LIVERMORE: Where is it? 79 1 MR. KING: Item 3D, page 46. Except as may 2 be prohibited by other provisions of these regulations 3 and any other applicable law, owners of aircraft based 4 at the airport who desire to self fuel their aircraft 5 shall apply for and receive a self-fueling permit from 6 the Airport Manager. The preceding sentence does not 7 apply to the use of self-service fuel provided by a FBO. 8 MR. LIVERMORE: Okay. That addresses my 9 question. 10 MR. WOOD: I got two pages 46's. 11 MR. WALTERS: Can you print me out a page of 12 46? 13 MR. LIVERMORE: I'd like to see that one, 14 too. I don't have it, I don't think. 15 MRS. DUNGAN: No, you don't, because I have 16 it here. 17 MR. WOOD: Make sure it's the right one. 18 Section -- 19 MRS. DUNGAN: 3D.13. 20 MR. KING: Yeah. And then write above that 21 is that place where moveable fuel storage tanks, that's 22 where you get your gas cans there. It's otherwise -- 23 unless otherwise prohibited -- approved by the airport 24 manager moveable fuel storage tanks are prohibited 25 except for fuel trucks constructed, permanent fuel tanks 80 1 in an operable aircraft, tanks not exceeding one gallon 2 capacity used solely for sampling and testing. But I 3 think that's aircraft fuel. 4 MR. WOOD: But it limits your portable tanks 5 to one gallon. 6 MR. KING: Yeah, I think that's aircraft 7 fuel though. 8 MR. LIVERMORE: Yeah, that is what I have is 9 one gallon for my little tug. 10 MR. KING: Vehicle fuel is right below it 11 and there's no restriction on that. There's nothing 12 allowed so that's where we need to -- going to add 13 something for portable gas cans. 14 MR. LIVERMORE: Portable gas cans for -- 15 MR. KING: Well, some sort of portable 16 fueling device so they can fuel up that tractor over 17 there. 18 MR. LIVERMORE: Oh, okay. 19 MR. WOOD: There's no vehicle gas pumps. 20 MR. LIVERMORE: You were talking about that 21 when I was out. 22 MR. WOOD: So if he's mowing and he needs to 23 fill up his tank he's got to use a five gallon can or 24 something. 25 MR. KING: So Jason can do it. They have to 81 1 have gas on the airport, so we probably oughta have a 2 provision for that. 3 MR. WOOD: I can't believe we got through 4 the whole thing. 5 MR. WALTERS: There's a lot of things in 6 here that need to be addressed. I mean actually I was 7 looking out at those trucks there, you know, the fuel 8 trucks that Joey has. I mean, you know, the 9 requirements in here for the FBO, I mean he's 10 noncompliant in two sections, easily. 11 MR. LIVERMORE: Well, I wonder how many of 12 his people have had the training that requires it. 13 MR. WOOD: I've got to say that it's 14 extensive what they say you have to have, it's the 15 safety courses. 16 MR. GRIFFIN: He's got to meet his insurance 17 guides. But it doesn't -- you know, he's got -- he's 18 got to do what his insurance requirements for his 19 business, but that may not necessarily jive with this, 20 so -- 21 There's some interesting -- Carole and Bruce 22 pulled some minimum standards from other airports, and I 23 looked at those last week, and there's some interesting 24 words in those. There's probably some -- there's 25 probably some things that we can, you know, really 82 1 utilize the stuff that's already been established in 2 some other communities and some other airports. I think 3 it's -- you know, there's some in the case of Sugar Land 4 has a section just on conflicting laws ordinance and it 5 puts the hierarchy, and you know, for which applies 6 first and second. 7 (Off the record.) 8 MR. GRIFFIN: Something to be looked at, I 9 think, as we go through this process. We'll have to 10 look at some of the verbiage in some of these other 11 minimum standards to do some of the things that are 12 positive. 13 I think as we go forward we really gotta 14 look at some of these other minimum standards. Sugar 15 Land in their introduction says one of the reasons for 16 the minimum standards is to insure that the current 17 commercial operators are not exposed to unfair and 18 irresponsible competition. You know, and I think that 19 the going imposition as to why you do the minimum 20 standards. And then serve the public interest and 21 discourage substandard business practices and 22 construction. It sets standards for persons leasing 23 land on the airport. And that's their introduction to 24 their minimum standards. 25 So as we go forward. I think we oughta 83 1 really look at some of the words and some of these other 2 ones, because I think they will really apply to us and 3 they resolve a lot of the things that we're talking 4 about earlier. 5 MR. WOOD: And I think we should do similar 6 to what they did, say put what the purpose of our 7 minimum standards are. 8 MR. KING: Of course you have to understand 9 Sugar Land wrote the minimum standards and they are the 10 the FBO. They are the only FBO in the field, they own 11 it. And they own it as a City. 12 MR. LIVERMORE: The City does. 13 MR. WOOD: Which is going to be different. 14 MR. KING: And from what I understand 12 to 15 15 million dollars in that facility. 16 MR. GRIFFIN: A gazillion dollars. 17 Incredible place. 18 MR. KING: So they have some form of 19 protection. 20 MR. WOOD: Could you spell gazillion for 21 her. 22 MR. GRIFFIN: She's going to hit me with a 23 big two by four. 24 MR. KING: I think we have a good start, 25 don't you think, a good start on the changes. I mean I 84 1 think the goals should be to simplify it some, and to 2 try to insert some things, but we make it fair. Make it 3 fair for everybody. 4 MR. WOOD: Be sensitive to where Joe came 5 from and everything. 6 MR. KING: Just 'cuz he got here first 7 doesn't mean -- 8 MR. WOOD: We also have an obligation to the 9 public. 10 MR. KING: -- that you have a right, you 11 know. Also would be like saying I went and built 25 12 T-hangars over here, and then you guys wouldn't build 13 anymore T-hangars because you're going to put me out of 14 business. And I mean you can't do that. You know, we 15 built the hangars. The City and the airport owns the 16 hangars, we own all those T-hangars. That is direct 17 competition for our FBO. And we -- I guess -- I guess 18 what I'm saying is you can't pick and choose your 19 battles, you know. You can't -- it has to be across the 20 Board considered fair. You can't specifically say y'all 21 that hurts me, or this doesn't, but I've been here. I 22 think you just to have to look at it as a whole -- 23 MR. WOOD: There's going to be some 24 different things. 25 MR. KING: -- how it affects everyone. 85 1 Okay. Anybody else got anything? Thank you 2 so much. We'll adjourn this meeting at 10:52. 3 * * * * * * 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 1 STATE OF TEXAS * 2 COUNTY OF KERR * 3 I, DEBRA ELLEN GIFFORD, the Official 4 Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the Kerr County 5 Commissioners' Court, do hereby certify that the above 6 and foregoing pages contain and comprise a true and 7 correct transcription of the proceedings had in the 8 above-entitled Airport Minimum Standards' Workshop. 9 Dated this the 20th day of May, A.D. 2016. 10 11 /s/DEBRA ELLEN GIFFORD Certified Shorthand Reporter 12 No. 953 Expiration Date 12/31/2016 13 * * * * * * 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25